[Buga] Toy MUA (was: [lca2004-helpers] Alleged "toy" MTA)
Greg 'groggy' Lehey
Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au
Tue May 27 10:59:24 CST 2003
On Monday, 26 May 2003 at 21:56:24 +0930, Daniel O'Connor wrote:
> On Mon, 26 May 2003 18:47, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
>>>> Nope. It goes back to the default. Take a look at the attachment.
>>> I can't it isn't valid MIME.
>> What problem do you see?
> It looked like it was part of a MIME message was quoted without the
> framework to make it a proper MIME message.
It doesn't to me. I've just checked, and it looks fine. If you can
see something I can't, why don't you say what it is? Otherwise you
sound like SCO.
> I try not to ask sendmail to do anything that is remotely
> complicated as it's usually too hard to debug :(
Agreed, it's a pain.
>>> Yes I realise sendmail is possibly not the 'best' MTA around, but I
>>> prefer to avoid the problem as much as possible,
>> Sure. I use sendmail on my laptop because it just works out of the
>> box. Occasionally you need to get round some local configuration
>> problem by pointing at a smart host, but that's an MTA function, not
>> an MUA function.
> Bleh, what a pain in the ass.
You don't mean horse, do you?
> I never change my mail configuration on my laptop. I never have to
> find a smart host to handle email for me.
So you do you get your mail out? I thought you said you did it by
changing your mail configuration. If you have to point at a specific
server, I can't see any other method.
> I prefer that, it's less work.
>>>> Ah. Good. But why must you make a new "folder"? What's wrong with
>>>> existing ones.
>> As I said in the message I bounced to you, I calculated that starting
>> up KMail on my laptop would take about 90 minutes (and, which I didn't
>> say, use up about 10 GB of disk space) because it was trying to
>> "import" all the files in ~/Mail. That shouldn't be necessary. I
>> don't want to waste space like that.
> I haven't noticed my version of KMail doing things like that.
Take a look in your ~/Mail directory and check if you have any files.
>>> Could be.. I don't see any weird index crap with my mbox example I just
>>> created though.
>> Did you look with ls -al? This is what was created this morning:
>> total 1351
>> -rw------- 1 grog lemis 4629 May 26 09:58 .$znet.index
>> -rw-r--r-- 1 grog lemis 101 May 26 09:58 .$znet.index.ids
>> -rw------- 1 grog lemis 33 May 26 09:58 .-----.index
>> -rw-r--r-- 1 grog lemis 33 May 26 09:58 .-----.index.ids
>> -rw------- 1 grog lemis 33 May 26 09:58 .--.index
>> -rw------- 1 grog lemis 1313 May 26 10:01 .apesa.index
>> -rw-r--r-- 1 grog lemis 49 May 26 10:01 .apesa.index.ids
>> -rw------- 1 grog lemis 653 May 26 10:01 .apfortin.index
>> -rw-r--r-- 1 grog lemis 41 May 26 10:01 .apfortin.index.ids
>> (etc). It doesn't create just one index file, it creates two! And
>> look at the size. All of those in 2 kB frags.
> OMG! Calamity.
Don't be silly.
In my particular case, which admittedly is extreme, these files would
represent about 36 GB of mainly wasted space. Certainly other MUAs
get by without them.
>>> Scroll bars? Hierachies? I have about 200 mail folders, I can't imagine
>>> USING 9000 folders since I doubt I even have that many email messages.
>> Can you imagine using scroll bars to fight your way through 9000
> Hierachies would help. I wouldn't dream of having a flat list of
> 9000 folders.
No, because you're using the wrong tools.
>>> Even assuming I decided to start keeping mail from all my mailing
>>> lists I still wouldn't need 9000 folders without being able to hide
>>> some of them in hierachies (eg have archive folders which are
>>> collapsed by default)
>> Each of these files represents somebody I know. With file name
>> completion, it's not ridiculously easy to find the right one, but
>> usually there's no problem, and with a few standard tools you can find
>> what you're looking for.
> What can I say? I don't operate like that. I don't think many mail
> tools are designed by people who operate like that.
> ie you have unique problems.
This is an unsubstantiated claim. Who wrote mutt? It comes a lot
closer to being useful.
>>>> Yes, but this is all menu oriented, right?
>>> Not really, there are standards applications follow for key
>> Can you give an example?
> Alt-e will be the edit menu, Ctrl-q will quit, Ctrl-w will close a window,
> Ctrl-s saves, etc..
c-q and c-s break the Xlib bindings. And I've seen c-s do different
things, search for example.
>>>> That's particularly the UNIX way. It's one of the most important
>>>> things about it. How do you grep through an OpenOffice text, for
>>>> example? What about version control?
>>> How do you see what your troff document will look like after markup?
>> You use one of the programs designed for that purpose. Revision
>> control is for source.
> An OO document IS source. It's displayed specially.
It's not displayed at all. I had to extract it. What use is a diff
on a one-line document?
> How do you spell check your documents?
With Emacs and flyspell mode.
> Last time I tried running ISpell on something with markup it tried
> to correct all my markups.
You didn't tell it what the markup was like.
> I choose the applications I run because I find them useful - if you
> don't, or they don't fit with the way you work then don't use them!
That's what I do, of course.
> I don't really care if something is "the unix way", or adhering to
> it for dogmatic reasons.
These are not dogmatic reasons. I used Microsoft-oriented programs
before I was able to use UNIX. I hated them, and I certainly wouldn't
want to go back.
> I've finished bashing my head against the monitor for now BTW.
Yes, that's one of the effects that Microsoft-based software has on
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