[Buga] Toy MUA (was: [lca2004-helpers] Alleged "toy" MTA)

Greg 'groggy' Lehey Greg.Lehey at auug.org.au
Tue May 27 10:59:24 CST 2003


On Monday, 26 May 2003 at 21:56:24 +0930, Daniel O'Connor wrote:
> On Mon, 26 May 2003 18:47, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
>>>> Nope.  It goes back to the default.  Take a look at the attachment.
>>>
>>> I can't it isn't valid MIME.
>>
>> What problem do you see?
>
> It looked like it was part of a MIME message was quoted without the
> framework to make it a proper MIME message.

It doesn't to me.  I've just checked, and it looks fine.  If you can
see something I can't, why don't you say what it is?  Otherwise you
sound like SCO.

> I try not to ask sendmail to do anything that is remotely
> complicated as it's usually too hard to debug :(

Agreed, it's a pain.

>>> Yes I realise sendmail is possibly not the 'best' MTA around, but I
>>> prefer to avoid the problem as much as possible,
>>
>> Sure.  I use sendmail on my laptop because it just works out of the
>> box.  Occasionally you need to get round some local configuration
>> problem by pointing at a smart host, but that's an MTA function, not
>> an MUA function.
>
> Bleh, what a pain in the ass.

You don't mean horse, do you?

> I never change my mail configuration on my laptop. I never have to
> find a smart host to handle email for me.

So you do you get your mail out?  I thought you said you did it by
changing your mail configuration.  If you have to point at a specific
server, I can't see any other method.

> I prefer that, it's less work.

What's "that"?

>>>> Ah.  Good.  But why must you make a new "folder"?  What's wrong with
>>>> existing ones.
>>>
>>> eh?
>>
>> As I said in the message I bounced to you, I calculated that starting
>> up KMail on my laptop would take about 90 minutes (and, which I didn't
>> say, use up about 10 GB of disk space) because it was trying to
>> "import" all the files in ~/Mail.  That shouldn't be necessary.  I
>> don't want to waste space like that.
>
> I haven't noticed my version of KMail doing things like that.

Take a look in your ~/Mail directory and check if you have any files.

>>> Could be.. I don't see any weird index crap with my mbox example I just
>>> created though.
>>
>> Did you look with ls -al?  This is what was created this morning:
>>
>> total 1351
>> -rw-------   1 grog  lemis      4629 May 26 09:58 .$znet.index
>> -rw-r--r--   1 grog  lemis       101 May 26 09:58 .$znet.index.ids
>> -rw-------   1 grog  lemis        33 May 26 09:58 .-----.index
>> -rw-r--r--   1 grog  lemis        33 May 26 09:58 .-----.index.ids
>> -rw-------   1 grog  lemis        33 May 26 09:58 .--.index
>> ...
>> -rw-------   1 grog  lemis      1313 May 26 10:01 .apesa.index
>> -rw-r--r--   1 grog  lemis        49 May 26 10:01 .apesa.index.ids
>> -rw-------   1 grog  lemis       653 May 26 10:01 .apfortin.index
>> -rw-r--r--   1 grog  lemis        41 May 26 10:01 .apfortin.index.ids
>>
>> (etc).  It doesn't create just one index file, it creates two!  And
>> look at the size.  All of those in 2 kB frags.
>
> OMG! Calamity.

Don't be silly.

In my particular case, which admittedly is extreme, these files would
represent about 36 GB of mainly wasted space.  Certainly other MUAs
get by without them.


>>> Scroll bars? Hierachies? I have about 200 mail folders, I can't imagine
>>> USING 9000 folders since I doubt I even have that many email messages.
>>
>> Can you imagine using scroll bars to fight your way through 9000
>> files?
>
> Hierachies would help. I wouldn't dream of having a flat list of
> 9000 folders.

No, because you're using the wrong tools.

>>> Even assuming I decided to start keeping mail from all my mailing
>>> lists I still wouldn't need 9000 folders without being able to hide
>>> some of them in hierachies (eg have archive folders which are
>>> collapsed by default)
>>
>> Each of these files represents somebody I know.  With file name
>> completion, it's not ridiculously easy to find the right one, but
>> usually there's no problem, and with a few standard tools you can find
>> what you're looking for.
>
> What can I say? I don't operate like that. I don't think many mail
> tools are designed by people who operate like that.
>
> ie you have unique problems.

This is an unsubstantiated claim.  Who wrote mutt?  It comes a lot
closer to being useful.

>>>> Yes, but this is all menu oriented, right?
>>>
>>> Not really, there are standards applications follow for key
>>> bindings.
>>
>> Can you give an example?
>
> Alt-e will be the edit menu, Ctrl-q will quit, Ctrl-w will close a window,
> Ctrl-s saves, etc..

c-q and c-s break the Xlib bindings.  And I've seen c-s do different
things, search for example.

>>>> That's particularly the UNIX way.  It's one of the most important
>>>> things about it.  How do you grep through an OpenOffice text, for
>>>> example?  What about version control?
>>>
>>> How do you see what your troff document will look like after markup?
>>
>> You use one of the programs designed for that purpose.  Revision
>> control is for source.
>
> An OO document IS source. It's displayed specially.

It's not displayed at all.  I had to extract it.  What use is a diff
on a one-line document?

> How do you spell check your documents?

With Emacs and flyspell mode.

> Last time I tried running ISpell on something with markup it tried
> to correct all my markups.

You didn't tell it what the markup was like.

> I choose the applications I run because I find them useful - if you
> don't, or they don't fit with the way you work then don't use them!

That's what I do, of course.

> I don't really care if something is "the unix way", or adhering to
> it for dogmatic reasons.

These are not dogmatic reasons.  I used Microsoft-oriented programs
before I was able to use UNIX.  I hated them, and I certainly wouldn't
want to go back.

> I've finished bashing my head against the monitor for now BTW.

Yes, that's one of the effects that Microsoft-based software has on
me, too.

Greg
--
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