LinuxSA Mailing list archives

  From: Jason Tan <jason@rebel.rebel.net.au>
  To  : Andrew Reid <andrew.reid@plug.cx>
  Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:04:56 +0930 (CST)

Re: MS Curriculum at schools and TAFEs ...

On 23 Apr 2001, Andrew Reid wrote:

> On 23 Apr 2001 16:29:35 +0930, Jason Tan wrote:
> 
> > Well I cant see how that would be economical for most shchools who cant
> > afford  $1200 Pcs, let alone $20k servers and $1k thin clients.
> 
> What type of thin clients? I think you'll find that the SunRay's are
> quite cheap. Well under $1K. And the servers? Well, they're a lot more
> than $20K. That is, if we're talking Sun.
> 
> > Ciriix migth be more affordable at least ahrdware wise, I am not sure what
> > the lsincesing cost for that would be.
> 
> Citrix, while with its uses is old and clunky. Citrix in a school must
> be like death by torture :-)
> 
> Citrx is not cheap by any stretch of the imagination. Not cheap enough
> for a school, anyway.
> 
> > Not ot mentiont ha fact tha most studnes and teachers if they have aPC at
> > home ahve awindows PC with wndows apps, (ie ms word/office or ms works),
> > not to mention lots of hard won "skills" in that OS and those apps.
> 
> I think that Matt quite clearly stated that the Office Applications
> aren't the issue. If you're running UNIX, you've got the option of

Yes but I dont agree with him, perhaps that was not clearly stated enough.

> StarOffice. We've got an E250 and a few SunRays here at work, and it's
> quite reasonable. The beefier the hardware, the better the performance,
> relative to the number of users hanging off the machine.
>  
> > It is not the setup which is the problem.
> > It is the ongoing support, the crisis response time, (ie I am giving a
> > lessioon now and my web page wont come up what do I do? where is that $50
> > an hour conultatnt who fixes our systems, why isnt he here now...)
> 
> $50/hour?! Damn cheap consultant for UNIX related stuff. A properly

Yes which somewhat illustrates my point, that schools cant afford them.

> setup machine would only have to be rebooted and be fixed up in seconds.

Sounds like a windows fix.
And yes they are cheap consultants with all teh implications, they cant
afford good ones.
> A properly setup IT Infrastructure would have 1 or two 'ready made' PCs
> on a shelf. If a PC in the labs dies, pull it off the shelf and stick it
> in the lab. Fix the broken one and stick it on the shelf. It's really
> not that hard.
> 
> > A linux system is easy for you to adminsiter, but not so easy for an
> > average person or an average teacher, even an "IT coordinator".
> 
> NT isn't exactly a joy to work with either, you know. People struggle
> for days on end with NT configuration. I know that I could have got it
> done under Linux in about 1 hour.

No but there si a certainlevel of hard won knowledge of windows with
teachers. There is virtaully none with unix.
 
> It's a lot easier than you think. A person armed with Mandrake and an
> APC Linux PocketBook is well equipped for setting up Linux. Even for the
> first time.

Setting up is not the issue.
It is ongoing admin.

If I thiughtit would help I would set up a machien for a school and say
look here is an old 486, that you can now use as a fiel server.
But that is not the problem it is adminsterign it.
It is settign up shared directories for this project or that project.
Which relaly is nto thateasy unless you understand the unix security
model.

One thing I want to do "one day" is precisely this, but with approprately
easy to use front end on it.


> > A system that is flexible and multipurpaose cant be zero admin. It is a
> > lie for windows and would be a lie for linux.
> 
> That's completely not true, for UNIX. A system that's multipurpose can
> still fit into the category of 'Zero Admin'. SunRay's pull it off quite
> easily. Note that Zero Admin doesn't mean that you never touch it. It's
> a fact of life that you have to do the odd spring cleaning job with your
> boxes, whether they be Linux or Windows.

Which is whty zero adminis a lie. Because you always have to touch it.
 
> > That is why there is a demand for these guys called sys admins.
> 
> There is a demand for people to manage the IT Infrastrucure in schools.

Andit is not met in state schools. Until it is significnat change is nto
liely to be met with naything but resistance by the people who willbe most
affected by it.

> A smart System Administrator would implement technologies that requires
> the least maintenance. System Administrators aren't employed to run
> around unnecessarily

Thats true, but it still assumes the preence of a samrt system admin, when
in most schools there is NO system admin.

A few schools are lucky and they can afford them or have voluneteers, but
this is I am told the exception not the rule.

 
> > While it is fine if your school has access to a permanent IT guy, like
> > yours does in you, the majority of schools however dont.
> > And evne those that do, like a certain private secondary boys "laptop
> > school" I worked at once, dont necessarily ahve peopel of the right
> > calibre or inclination ot understand or be able to use linux for eithger
> > server or desktop purposes.
> 
> Invest in something like SunRay then. While the initial outlay is, while
> reasonable, large, the TCO goes down. Administration time goes down. You
> can remotely administer the system using SSH/VNC etc. That's harder/more
> expensive under Windows.

As long as you know how to admin it to start with.
Which of course assumes, wait for it, a system admin - which once again
most schools dont have.

 
> > And until they do you will find resistance to change away forom what
> > people have invested a ocnsiderable portion of their own time and money
> > into getting a level of usability.
> 
> It's all about how you sell the idea. Sell it right and they'll ask
> where to sign. Sell it the wrong way and you'll get the reaction you've
> detailed above.

So how do you make it attractive to double or triple someone's unpaid
already excessive work load?

> 
> > These people dont play with PCs for fun, they do it because they ahve been
> > dragged kicking and screaming into it, often at their own expense in tiem
> > and money.
> 
> Again, because they forced to 'buy' the idea. And not all people were
> 'dragged kicking and screaming into it'.

No not all. But most.


> > Well lets see how manya games are there for linux... and will mum be able
> > to do her wordprocessign for the footy club, and will dad kill me,
> > becausse he cant use mirc?
> 
> Quite usable alternatives exist for all situations. The variety of games
> is a little restricted, so go install Windows on the other partition.

Yes and most schools have a usable solution tright now which they have
inested lots of tiem and money in and does enough to amke them ahppy.
Why change it?

jason

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